es does not just say what he means. Thrasymachus likes to give long speeches without being interrupted by questions. Any other form of teaching, he feels, shows weakness. Socrates says he is trembling and frightened by Thrasymachus’ outburst. Socrates then gets Thrasymachus to present his view on justice. But first Thrasymachus wants to be paid for his information. The young men put up the money.Thrasymachus says that justice is the advantage of the “stronger”. Robbery and violence are normally called "injustice," but when they are practiced wholesale by rulers, they are justice, i.e. the interest of the stronger, the rulers. Thus, when we consider ordinary citizens, “the just man comes off worse than an unjust man everywhere" (343d). Since the rulers do not obey the principles they impose on the citizens, they are in those terms "unjust." Socrates and Thrasymachus agree that the stronger are those who rule and establish the law, and that being just is beneficial. However, they disagree on who is beneficial because they are just. Is it to the just man himself? On the other hand, is it to the ruler who determines what is just and what is not? Socrates makes the point that if the weak, after all, can prevent the strong from taking what they want or can prevent someone from becoming a tyrant, then they are the strong.For Thrasymachus, being just is obeying the laws of rulers. He then says that rulers make laws for the purpose of increasing their own power and wealth. Thus, just men are weak and powerless in comparison to their rulers. Socrates then gets Thrasymachus to agree with him that sometimes rulers make errors in judgement and that the ruler’s advantage may be stopped if their orders are obeyed. Thrasymachus limits his claims to saying that rulers who make mistakes are not rulers.Thrasymachus then says that rulers must be guided by knowledge, much to Socrates’ pleasure. Rulers can be considered ru...
